Sister Mary Jo McDonald

Photo Credit: Montana Standard

Oral History Transcript of Sister Mary Jo McDonald

Interviewers: Aubrey Jaap & Clark Grant
Interview Date: August 7th, 2020
Location: Butte-Silver Bow Public Archives
Transcribed: February 2021, by Adrian Kien

[00:00:30]

Jaap: Okay. So it's August 7th, 2020. We're here with Sister Mary Jo McDonald.  Sister Mary Jo, I'd like you just to start off and tell me a little bit about your parents and your grandparents and some of your family background.

McDonald: Okay. My background is that my grandparents, on my mother's side, had a ranch out in Orofino Gulch in Brown's Gulch. And they had cattle at first and then they went to raising chickens and selling eggs. And they had turkeys. And so I have recollections of going out there with my parents to visit them usually, oh, probably about once a week anyway. And we would chase the chickens and they would send us out with a basket to find the eggs that the chickens had laid out in the fields. And then we'd come back, hopefully, at least with one egg. So it was considered a successful search.

And on my father's side, my dad was born in Anaconda and his parents lived there and then they moved to Helena on the bench area, outside of Helena, and they had a ranch there.

And so I don't know too much about my father's side, but my mother's side is the one we were always closely connected with. And, I can recall going to their place and having a great time as children, chasing chickens and being there while they did the chicken kills, which wasn't always the most pleasant event, but they were great years. And we had a good time wandering in the area. They also had an old dance hall at the end of their property, and that was a great entertainment place for us. And I remember the old piano that they put the roles on so you could listen to the music whenever. And we thought that was quite entertaining when we were growing up as children.

So I grew up with a brother two years older than I, and then eight years beyond my years, we had a third edition to the family and I've always been grateful that we kept him. So anyway, he was a great brother. So my older brother lives in Henderson, Nevada, and my younger brother passed away four years ago.

[00:02:51]

But, let's see, I'm jumping.

Jaap: Oh, what you're doing is perfect. So your mom's family in Brown's Gulch, what family last name is that?

McDonald: The family name was Bechtold, B E C H T O L D. Yeah.

Jaap: And the dance hall. Was it something everyone in Brown's Gulch used?

McDonald: Yes. And by the time we came along, it had been pretty much a thing of the past, but when we came along, we used it as a playground area. So we had great times there and it was wide open spaces. Do whatever you wanted. My uncle didn't care. So he was kind of in charge of the place. And he took care of my grandparents. And, of course, mom was down in Anaconda and close by. So she would come and do what she needed to do also. So they took great care of them.

But I grew up in Anaconda. We moved to Anaconda when I was about three years old. And the reason I was born in Butte is my dad worked construction for the phone company. And they were up on the Highline, bringing the phone lines in for the first time in that area. And so when it came time to birth children, my mother would come back to Brown's Gulch and stay with her mother until the event happened. And then my father would come down when he could get some time off and take us back up with him.

And we lived in trailer camps and we were called, "the good old trailer tramps", But I can recall as a child, I was very inquisitive and would never stay home, was out wandering around even as a young child. And so my mother had a great wisdom and she knew she couldn't capture me. So she designed a harness that would fit over my main top body. And then she could hook me up on a rope giving me the full distance, except I couldn't get into the roadway. She didn't have to worry anymore, because I was in front of the trailer. I was behind the trailer. I was beside the trailer. I was all over and occasionally I'd be following the maintenance man but always within the distance of the rope so that I was never in the roads as the travelers went in and out of the camp.

So as a young child, she did try to tether me. And an interesting story was we went to Helena to visit his older sister and the younger sister was there also. And they had a wonderful backyard, which had wide open spaces. And when we got there, I wanted to go out and play. And so my mother dutifully put the harness on me and hooked me up. So I couldn't get too far, but had plenty of space to roam. And my older aunt was indignant with my mother to think that she would put a harness on a child. She didn't understand the fact that this was about safety. And so we came in the house and I was ready to go back outside again. And my mother went to get the harness and tether me again. And my aunt absolutely refused to let her, so my mother went out with me and spent the time with me watching. And then we came inside when it was time to go home. And the next day she could not get the harness back on me. I was free.

[00:06:33]

And so there was a little more limiting of my freedom so that she could watch me closer when it was time for me to be outside and wander around and do the things I loved to do. But growing up in Anaconda truly was one of the most wonderful experiences. We grew up with friends that we could be out at night. We could play kick the can. We could play any game you wanted. And it was always entertaining. We had friends that would live in different directions. One night, we would walk one friend home and then back home to us another time we'd walk another friend home and back home. But the freedom we had growing up was just tremendous. And we all lived in a neighborhood that people really cared about what was happening in the neighborhood and who was in the neighborhood.

So that was also a good experience for us. And I think it's something that's missing today. And I'm wondering if perhaps this stay at home order might somehow open up a new way of doing things for families. And that would be my prayer that somehow families would find new ways of doing things that would energize people around family events and being home for family meals and the high tech instruments put aside for family meals so that we don't have to be constantly on the phone or texting the person sitting next to you. So it would be wonderful that conversations began to take place again with families. And I know as growing up, we always had the family meal together. And I have to be honest, I never had to do dishes. Because that was mom and dad's time and they did them together. So that they had conversations together without us around and just could be themselves with one another and enjoy those few moments of time.

And my mother would always laugh. She would always say she started washing the dishes and my father was drying. She said before she even realized it, she was drying the dishes and he was in the dishpan. So he would switch with her. I think he got quicker.

When we first went to Anaconda, my father had made the decision. He had to go off the construction crews because it was time for my older brother to go to school. And he didn't want us moving from place to place and finding ourselves in different schools all the time. So he had a choice between Helena, Butte and Anaconda, and as a young child he had been in Anaconda. And so he decided to go to Anaconda. And so he worked for the phone company there, I think for 33 years. But the move there was interesting because, at that time, the war, of course, was ending and homes were at a premium. You couldn't find homes because it was such a small community. And they had what were called the victory homes and they were on the east side of Anaconda and they were similar in construction, but they were one story. Similar to what we would call the Silver Bow homes.

So we finally got a place there. And so we were there until they found a house out in Marshall park and we got the home in Marshall park and my mother would walk my brother to kindergarten everyday to St. Paul's school. And that was quite a little trick, but she took care of him going there and we'd go pick him up. And sometimes I would get to go with her other times, the neighbor watched me. And so that was our beginning. And then when I was probably about six, they got a home on Locust and Fifth, which was caddy corner from St. Paul's school. And so obviously that made it perfect for everybody. So we could run to school, come home from school. Mother didn't have to walk us there anymore and just sent us out the door. And so by grade school was at St. Paul's grade school. We had Ursuline sisters, Benedictine sisters, and then when we graduated there and went to Central high school, we had the Dominican sisters.

And then I sit here before you as a Sister of Charity of Leavenworth. And the question is why?
Well, God works in mysterious ways. So we went to school there and had great friends, great times, and loved riding my bike, playing softball. And I played softball with the women's softball team. And so I was really acquainted with the older gals, several of them were down in Bozeman at school. And so when it came time to make a decision on what I was gonna do for school, I decided I would go down to Bozeman. And so I talked with my folks and they thought, "Well, that'd be fine. And there were gals down there and it would be a good opportunity for you. So sure. Go ahead." And then I went back to Central and Father McCoy called me into his office one day and he said, "What's this I hear about you going to Montana State University?"

[00:12:12]

And I said, "Well, that's my choice." And he said, "You're not gonna go there." And I said, "Well, why not?" And he said, "No respectful Catholic girl graduating from Central would be going to a public school." And I thought about public school university. I said, "Well, yes I am." And he says, "No," he said, "you're not." So I didn't argue at that point, because I thought I'd better go home and talk to my parents about this. So I went home and talked to them and said, "Well, of course, you've made a choice. You're going to go to Montana State. You know girls down there. And it'll be fun and you'll play softball with them in the summers. And this will be great." And so I went back to school and didn't do anything and said nothing, but got called to the office again later. And so I went back to the office and we went into this whole routine. And I said, "No, I'm going to Montana State University. And my parents have said, 'yes,' and they support my decision." And so off we go again and he hands me a paper and he pushes it across the table and he said, "Sign this." And I said, "Sign what?"

And he said, "It's an application form. And you're gonna go to St. Mary college in Leavenworth, Kansas." And I'm like, "What?" Because I mean now here Montana State is a little closer to home. Kansas is a little ways away. And so I thought, well, sign it because you're gonna go home and your parents are gonna say it doesn't matter. And then you will just take care of this at the end of time, when all things are established. So I went back. And in the mail about a month later, I got an application form from St. Mary's with scholarship funds. And so I looked at that and I looked at my folks and I thought, okay, if I did this, this is what it would cost. And if I did this, this is what it would cost. And I said, "Well, why don't I go ahead and try it? If I don't like it, I'll come home at Christmas." And so I said, at least I'll have a semester in and things would be okay. So I did that. And while I was down there and got acquainted with the sisters, things changed a bit.

So I came home at Christmas and told my folks that I thought I'd be entering his Sisters at Charity of Leavenworth. Well, my mother kind of had tears and she said, "Don't do this. Why don't you finish your education first and then do it?" My mother was an educated woman. We didn't know that till I was about in eighth grade. She was a teacher before she married. But in the state of Montana, when they got married, they couldn't teach. So they became dumb or stupid. So anyway, she had been substituting teaching for the Catholic schools for a long time, but it's really interesting how things unfold like that. And so "finish your education and then make your decision." So I said, "Well, I think I'm gonna try it." They said, "Okay, we'll support that." So I did try it. And here I am 60 years later.

[00:15:29]

So I entered in 1960 and has since been in ministry with the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth in various places. And my last mission and continued mission is here in Butte, Montana. And I came back to Butte, Montana in 1980. Because there was an opening in the schools and my folks were getting older and needed a little extra help. And so I thought this is the time. And so I applied and was sent out here and I taught three years at the Central Junior High, which was called North Central at that time. And then during that time, the second year we moved South Central and North Central together. And we chose the St Patrick's school for that, which was neutral territory, which everybody wanted neutral territory, but was not the best school we should have been in IC school. It was a much better school and had plenty of space to move, merge them all together with activities, et cetera. St. Patrick's was small and it was tight to get everybody in, but it worked. And they were two wonderful years. And we had great classes there. And I still see students I've taught in Butte and that's always fun to revisit with them. And then after this three year stint teaching, Sister Edna Hunthausen was working at St Anne's. And so she came up to me and she said, "Mary Jo, I have just the job for you. I'm going to go to Browning and work on the reservation, but I need somebody to come to St Ann's. I've been thinking about this and I want you to come down and see what I do and see if you'd like it and give it a try."

So I did. And so that's where I spent 34 years in ministry to the people there and the people in the city of Butte. And that's where some of my interests kind of got developed. And in 1990, one of the first big pushes was the water issue in Butte and Dennis Washington corporation had bought Butte water along with the mine and all the properties over there and the trucks, et cetera. And originally his intent was to take all of the metals and get rid of them and sell them. And he was also gonna sell all the other movable equipment and usable equipment to other mining companies. But there was a miner here who went and visited with him and said "This is a wonderful opportunity, and this is why it's such a wonderful opportunity." And he took the advice of that person and he kept him, but he also kept our water company. And it was in 1990 when the newspaper came out with a boil order. That everybody had to boil their water before using it. And so I was watching this event unfold. They had to either buy their water in big jugs, or they had to boil water. And I was working a lot with our senior citizens and they were lugging gallons of water to their homes, because they didn't have cars, some of them. And also you'd visit them and you'd smell something. And you'd think, do you have something on a stove? Well, their water was on the stove and she was heating it to boil it for the six minutes while it was overtime. And so the pot was dry. And there's too much danger involved for our senior citizens and getting those pans off the water, getting the water stored somewhere that it just was not just.

I had a group of women in a prayer group and they would come once a week and we would pray and mostly they'd have a great visit with one another. And so I was visiting, "What have you been doing this week?" So I told them that I was observing all this, and I was really getting upset about what we were being asked to do, when everybody's paying for the water. And that it was an unjust situation. They had to buy water, they had to boil water. And somebody said to me, "Well, what would you do?" And I said, "Well, I think we need to get a class action lawsuit together."

[00:20:09]

And I'm thinking, "Are you sure that you said that?" So that night, that very night, I got a phone call from a gentleman and his wife was a part of the prayer group and she went home and told him my thoughts and he called me and he said, "Okay, Mary Jo, here's what I want you to do tomorrow." He said, "I can't do this myself, but I want you to call Mr. Jim Gaetz in Bozeman and here's his phone number." And he said, "I've already talked to him." And that was Irvin Roth. Now I was sworn to secrecy to do that, but God bless Irvin, he's in the kingdom now. And I know he doesn't care and he deserves credit. He deserves the credit for getting us Jim Getz.

So in 1990, we had gathered together a small cohort of senior citizens, people who were just interested, but the group was such that there was nobody, who was afraid for a job, for a son or a daughter's job. There was no fear. And when we visited and asked, "Will you sign on for the duration?" The answer was yes. Now also on the lawsuit was my mother, up in years at that point in time, my brother, eight years younger than I was, and his wife. And so we kind of stacked the deck in many ways, but there were about 32 people in our first grouping. And of the 32, you can't always work with that number when you're looking at sitting down and talking about directions, et cetera. So we paired down and I think there was probably about 12 on what we called the steering committee. And with that group of people, whenever we met with Jim Gaetz, we would meet with him and then send information to the others which worked wonderfully. So Jim Gaetz took us on pro bono. Six and a half years later, it was 1996 March, that the final court case was heard and what we had done, we were up to the last minute and throughout the whole time of the lawsuit, the city government was upset with us and they hurled some pretty interesting comments to us, shall we say. And one day we woke up to a newspaper article that this group was nothing but a bunch of sheep being led by a goat. We thought, oh my, but Jim Gaetz laughed about it. And he still laughs about it. So, this group of people, they were tremendously unafraid. And I have to tell you, there were days I would wake up thinking I should not have done this. Because I didn't really care, what are you gonna do to a nun? I mean, truly. The community will support what I do as long as I'm sensible. Some days they wondered, but, yeah, it was an interesting time. And basically what happened eventually is that the city came to us because they had sold ASME, a bill of goods and told them what a wonderful place they had for a factory.

And it was Todd Higginbotham who brought them to us. It wasn't anybody here. It was Todd who was up in management with them and sold them on the idea of locating a place here in Butte, Montana, which eventually hired 350 workers. And so when they came to us, the city made all kinds of wonderful promises, but they hadn't really checked the promises.

Number one, that process needed millions of gallons of good water. Everybody in our group could tell you the water out in that area, in the TIFID, had gone bad. Roan Polling was buying their water to use in their, whatever they did. They didn't need millions of gallons, but all the wells out there had gone bad. And there they were. Now the Silicon company is ready to sign on the dotted line. Butte has no water for them. And so they came to us and they said, "You have to give us the lawsuit. You have to let us take the lawsuit, settle this part of the lawsuit. And then we will deal with the Silicon and Dennis Washington, et cetera." And we went back that night and talked about it after they left. And we said, "No, we'll not let you take the lawsuit." And the next time they came, there was quite a bit of anger involved in it. And they told us we really didn't know what we were doing. And we were gonna prevent something good happening to Butte. There wouldn't be 350 jobs. And Jim Gaetz was sitting right there while they're saying all this to us. And we still said no. So finally, when push came to shove and we were concerned about the 350 jobs, and today in hindsight, I probably would not have settled. I would've gone for it. Jim. Gaetz never lost anything. And we were in court four different times before the settlement happened.

So anyway, they came to us and said, "We'll do the settlement. And they said, oh great. And we'll negotiate everything from here on. You don't have to worry about a thing." We said, "No, we'll do the settlement. But we will decide what's going to happen and how it's going to happen and what will come to Butte." And so that kind of was not what they had been hoping for, but it was the best we were gonna give them. And so, as a result Dennis Washington had to give us the Butte Water Company. He had to give us his water rights to Silver Lake water.

[00:26:52]

He also had to give us eight and a half million dollars, and the class actions voted to use that money to redo the water lines in Butte and for four years, Dale Rawlings, myself, and my sister-in-law went to every construction meeting with the company and the water company to see where they were and what lines are being done and what wasn't being done. And I thought I had a better use of my time, but we'll do it. So there were really good things that came to Butte because of that, but it wasn't without heartache. And without "Gee, I wonder if we made a mistake or we didn't." But every time we met Jim Gaetz always gave us the option. He said, "Don't worry about me. If you think it's time to quit, we'll quit." Well, he went six and a half years and yes, he did get a payday because that was figured when he filed a pro bono. He always puts that little caveat in there that if in fact it settles in the favor, then whoever had damages to pay, had to pay him. And I'm grateful for that because, it's not every attorney that will take you six and a half years and in court several different times. And we were in the Supreme court at one point. And I have to tell you every time I end up on the witness stand, like with fear and trepidation and it's like, oh, what the heck? Just say what you think . So, and usually my support is there, my brother, my sister-in-law, my mother, we're always there to support whatever. But that was an interesting time in my life.

And it still allowed me to do my ministry work, which was really grace-filled because that's where you get your life, ministering with the people and being present to them and doing whatever you can for them. But I also felt an obligation to the community in which we lived and what we were doing would also affect all of the people of St. Ann's parish. So I didn't feel that they were being neglected in any way at all. But I felt what we were doing was a good thing. And interestingly enough, whenever I've done things like that, the people in the parish have been most supportive. They've always asked about it. They've always said, "Is there anything we can do to help or whatever?"

And so I've always appreciated that, that somehow they were willing to trust and they were willing to accept what happened. And so that all went for the good as I can see it.

And then the final lawsuit was, Ron Davis, Fritz Daily, and myself and Jim Gaetz again, took us on a pro bono and it was for the name of Silver Bow Creek. Now many people would ask you, "Why are you doing a lawsuit for the name of a Creek?" Well, they didn't know Jim Gaetz. Jim Gaetz is a brilliant attorney and he's done water cases all over the state, et cetera, cetera. And so he knew much of the underpinnings of a lawsuit for the name of a creek. And Montana has a law that if you want to change the name of a creek, you have to follow certain procedures and file a case. ARCO, Butte Silver Bow, the EPA never did that. All they did was name it the Metro Storm Drain. And as the Metro Storm Drain, whatever water flowed down that corridor was exempt from everything. Well, Jim Gaetz filed a lawsuit for us. I think we were twice in court here in Butte. And then Judge Brad Newman ruled Silver Bowl Creek is a waterway of the state and has to be treated as such. Now we find that the city government and Arco and EPA are relying on the fact that they're saying, "No, it's not, there's no water flowing, but water can be flowing, but not all of the time or underground. And actually the water to Silver Bow Creek was cut off by the mine. And so being cut off doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's flowing into the Yankee Doodle Tailings Pond. And so yes, it is still flowing. And the water from the tailings pond is flowing down through the different . . . it'll be going through the polishing plant, the new one. It goes through the horseshoe bend treatment plant. So part of Silver Bow Creek is flowing. I mean, it is still there. And up above before it gets into that area, there's fish there and it's a beautiful stream. So to say it doesn't exist, but the Metro Storm Drain does exist doesn't make any sense. And it makes less sense when you think about it.

So Texas Avenue down to the confluence, no Silver Bow Creek, but now where they're releasing the water from the polishing plant in a pipe that flows down, from where they connect it, it'll be across the Continental Street. And then on, down through that Texas Avenue to the last or first mile, however you wanna look at it, down to the confluence and all of a sudden you've got Silver Bow Creek and it's the water rushing out of the treatment plant into that area.

[00:33:03]

And that's very visible now because they are pushing a lot of water down through that pipe. And I think the only limitation right now is the size of the pipe, because they could be pushing more water. So, the size of the pipe is an issue, but also is an issue is what Arco did with agreement to the EPA and with the blessings of our city, was to say in 2003, they had permission to redo the corridor from Texas Avenue down. And what they did is they cut it in a trapezoid and so the sides are steeper, but then there's a flat bottom and then they incised what they call this little freestone, brook, creek. And it's just actually a little wiggle thing.

Now they did that with the intent of releasing horseshoe bend treated water into it. So there would always be a flowing stream. What they didn't realize was that by the time it had flown through Parrot  Tailings, Northside Tailings, Tailings East and got to the confluence with the Blacktail Creek, it was too contaminated to use.

[00:34:23]

And so what did they do? They said, "It's no longer a creek. We can't do this anymore." And that's when they used the pipeline to get the affluent water down. If they had some, sometimes they did. And sometimes they didn't. But what they did then is they made this a drainage for stormwater, and it can come off the hill. It can come from the Greedy area. But any of the storm water that's captured and pushed down to that area is a storm water drainage. And that drains into the basins that they're gonna be creating and the ponds that they'll have. And it's gonna be an issue eventually because when you look at it and you listen to what they're saying, it sounds wonderful. You're gonna have this beautiful park area down there. You're gonna have benches. You're going to have walking trails. It's going to be just a magnificent center. And then you think about it and the water's gonna be stagnant.

Or there may be no water because we don't have storms every year. And when I asked ARCO how many storms we have for the year - two to three storms that require all of that drainage area. And then you have the points people are making. Well, if we had Silver Bow Creek redone, it would be a line to the creek. Well, yes, it might be for a while, but in history it could be a free flowing creek without the lining. And then the question is, well, what do you do? You'll have to go in and dig out the lining? Well, maybe you could just poke some holes in it and let it dissipate. Obviously, there's ways you could cut it or do something and dig down and pull it all up. So anyway, the other reality of that is everything in that drainage area, the basins, the collecting basins, the retention, detention, ponds, whatever you wanna call them, they're all going to be lined.

And then at Butte reduction works, they're gonna take Silver Bow Creek, which is now Silver Bow Creek flowing. They're gonna take it from the north side and move it to the south side of the slag down there. And it's gonna be lined. Now, they have not stated that publicly, but three times in the consent decree that I found, it states it may have to be lined. Duh.

Do the people in Butte know that their storm water basin catchments are going to be lined. Do they know that the fish pond is going to be lined? Do they know that any of the areas down from the northside tailings past the confluence until you get to Blacktail Creek and the coming in of Silver Bow Creek, do they know that that whole area's going to be lined? My advice is go buy stock in the company that sells the linings. They're lined. And that's always gonna have to be maintained in perpetuity. So what are we getting? What's the bang for the buck? We are allowing them to do things that should not happen here. Perhaps on the hill they should have ways of collecting the storm water so it doesn't come all the way down and gather up all the sediments they can find. Now, granted, this is a mining community and we hear the word impracticable all the time. Well, who says impracticable? I mean, surely other things have been solved, but we don't want to go back and we don't wanna look at it. We need to go back and look at it. And the recent study by WET which now the EPA is refuting. Arco is not agreeing with it. Not saying too much right now, but the plumes of water flowing underneath the Parrot Tailings all the way down underneath the Columbus Plaza area, the homes in the community down there, it's contaminated.

And the one contamination you can see is at the Columbus Plaza sidewalks. Their watering well got into one of the plumes of water and manganese is evident on the sidewalks. It's black. Wherever the water or irrigating water hits the sidewalks, the sidewalks have turned black. And so is that a good clean up?

[00:39:39]

I don't think so. Because if that's going to be it, then you can't drill well, that's all. Really? It's my property. And there are such laws that say you can have a well, but you're saying I can't because it's contaminated. So what are you doing about the contamination? It's not enough yet. And that consent decree will be signed and I'm not gonna get on a white horse and charge through town and say, no. But I think we need to continue working so that we understand and they understand it is not okay to leave it as it is. And that's the EPA saying, "Oh, it's fine. We really didn't have to do the Parrot Tailings." You want to say to them what we can do with this plum of water? It's 40 feet down, but it's flowing, they're pumping it into the MRI property. What are you gonna do with that? And so it's like, "Well, it'll be fine. You should have just left everything in place." And actually the water that's coming out of there is more contaminated than the pit water. So did we not have to do something? And we have said this for years. Well, these two or three years that we've been fussing with them. And they keep saying, "No, it's not. No, it's not." And then you get to the French drain and you say there's problems. And the biggest problem is it's set too high. It needs to go down 40 feet to catch the water that has the contamination [where] it's flowing.

And then it was, "Well, it's not moving that much." Well, interestingly enough, it's already at the Columbus Plaza. And how far is that to Blacktail Creek? It's moving Southwest. Well, it's not moving that much yet. It did move that much. And they're not willing to say that it's fact. Now, what they're willing to do is they're gonna fight this last study.

But I was at the BNRC meeting last night and Jim Ford did the presentation on it and they have got the 3-d modelings of what's happening and the study is pretty, quite interesting. So ARCO can bring all of their company people up and say, "Oh, it'll be okay. There's no problem." And my suggestion to our community is, and I'm gonna make this probably on party line someday, my suggestion is we say, "ARCO/British Petroleum, you are an oil company. You are not a mining company. You know how to take care of oil spills. Have you ever taken care of a mining spill that's been underground for a hundred years?" There is a little difference. And so maybe the expertise we need now is to say maybe we did make a little mistake and maybe we can figure out how to rectify it.

So I think the challenge still needs to be thrown out and I'm not willing to quit yet. So that's kind of where I am in my life today. And I retired from St. Ann's four years ago, because it gives me more time to do reading and thinking about these things. Yeah. And to plot and plan what should be done for this community. But this community is so special.

And I serve also on the food bank board. And I can tell you, there is nobody in Butte, Montana who should be hungry. This community is so generous that they give out of their own need. And I think the blessings that they will receive eventually. will be monumental. And the other blessing, I think this community has, is our lady sitting on the mountain.

And if people look at her long enough, she has her arms open wide around Butte, Montana. It should be making a huge difference for this community and the blessings it receives. That's what we're all about here in this community. We're about the blessings that have been given, blessings returned and being aware of our brothers and sisters and their needs.

And that's our challenge. How do we respond to that? Now, I can tell you as a young child, there were times my mother would give me an envelope and ask me to take it to a neighbor. But she never said what it was, and I didn't care what it was. If she asked you to do something, you did it. So I took it to the neighbors, but growing up a little later and had a little more wisdom, I understood what she was doing. We were not a wealthy family, but we always made due. And my dad never was on strike. Smeltermen strikes. She was sending money to that family to help them with their groceries and never signed it. But I found that kind of interesting. I thought I didn't fall far from the [tree]. So anyway, she modeled in her life.

[00:45:13]

She never spoke to us about the things we should be doing. She just did them. And I think she expected us to catch it. And I think we probably did pretty good, but she was the one who kind of set the stage for all of us growing up. Here's what you do, follow my example. And so we did, and that's really probably the most important part of who I am today is through my mother and my father. My father worked all the time, but he didn't want her to work. He wanted her at home with us. And my younger brother and I laughed because when my father died, we were going through stuff and we found his last check was for seven - he'd earned $7,000 that year . And I know that when it was time for my younger brother to go to college, they were a little concerned and my mom said, “I'm going to start teaching.” And my dad said, "No, you're not." And she said, "Yes." So she had been substituting and teaching at the Catholic school because one of the sisters had fallen and broken a leg and the pastor hired her on to teach special-ed, the following year, which my dad was very unhappy about. And then all of a sudden an opening happened in the public schools. And so she said, "We're gonna start teaching at Dwyer while James is in college." So my dad was retired at that time. And he said, "Okay." So she went to Dwyer and taught second grade there and loved it.

And so during that time that she was in the public school system, one of the teachers at the Butte business college here filed a lawsuit because they were not allowed the retirement that the other full teachers got in the regular school systems. And she won the case. And so not only did she win the case for everybody, grade school, high school, but she also, in this suit, they allowed halftime retirement for teachers who taught in Catholic schools. And so she was able to pay back the years of teaching in Catholic school and got her full retirement.

So, and then she would always say, "Well, that was the blessing." That was her blessing for all the years she spent working at the Catholic school and it came back when she taught at the public school in time for her retirement. And so it all worked out fine and they were great managers and they lived in Anaconda until 1985. And my dad wasn't well. And so my mom kept saying to me, "We've got to move to Butte because you're there." And I said, "Well, I know I'm there, but your friends are here." And I said, "I'll come down." And she says, "No, we know you do. And you do more than you should in the wintertime. We don't want you on the road." So I said, "Well, just think about your friends and how much that will mean to you." And she said, again, "We'll always have our friends, but we need to be with family."

So one day I came down and there was a for sale sign on the dining room table. And I said, "Are you gonna sell the dining room table?" I thought, who's gonna see the sign here? She said, "No, we're gonna sell the house." And I thought, really? And I said, "You're putting a sign in the window? You're gonna sell the house?" And she said, "Yes." And I said, "Where are you going?" And she said, "We're moving to Butte." And I said, "But we don't have a place." Well, I'm thinking to myself, you better get home and find out what's available. Well, as it turned out, we found a little house on the drives, which was not even a full block away from St Ann's so I could work and take care of them. 49:16So my mother said, "All things will work out," and they did. So I moved them to Butte in 1985 and my dad died in 1987 and my mom died in 2003. So we had her for quite a bit while longer and she never lost her faculties. The body slowed down and she couldn't move, but she had her mind and she was always up on what was going on and who were doing things and who weren't doing things. And she followed the company stuff a lot because she was interested in all the things that we had done with the lawsuit, et cetera. So, she was a great lady. Now, I don't know if there's other . . .

Jaap: I do. So we talked to a lot of people about the mining effects in Butte, but do you recall the smoke in Anaconda from the smelter? I'd really like to hear a little bit about that.

McDonald: Do you know? I do. In fact, growing up, when you're gonna walk to school, you'd go out on the porch and you'd look at the smoke during the winter. And if it was level, you knew you better dress warm. If it was going up, ah, what heck, you still would, but it would be a light jacket. But yes, there was always smoke over Anaconda and yes, the slag pile was always there. And there were times you were playing in the slag pile when you shouldn't be, but how did it affect you? Obviously, I'm sitting here. I'm 79 years old, pretty healthy. But I feel honestly we all have the cancer gene. Something has to trigger it. I think sometimes our immune systems are not up to dealing with what comes our way and who knows how that affects us. But I do know that when the cleanup happens, it should happen for everybody. And the arsenic in yards should be removed.

Whether the hotspot isn't too big, so no, we don't have to. Well, now in Anaconda, they have to, all those yards are going to be cleaned. The negotiating team in Anaconda did wonders for that community. They don't have to worry about paying for that golf course for 25 years and it'll be maintained and operated by ARCO. What a blessing. I mean, because that will bring in good business. Part of the settlement that they've gotten will allow them to build a hotel complex, which is already in the offing and the planning. The company, I believe from here in Butte, probably who has the Hampton Inn and the Best Western is the company doing that. So yes, I think there's some real positive things for Anaconda. And I think they've done well and they should do well because they too have suffered many years from the contamination. And, and it's not right, that it would be left in place and people's healthcare needs to be taken care of. They need to have the testing done right. And every single person should have the right to the test to see what their blood levels are.

And then their attics need to be addressed from the dust that obviously has seeped in over the years. Same thing here in Butte. Sometimes it's the best kept secret because we only want to do so many a year because that'll be the interest funding and then the funds are still maintained. I understand that you want to try to maintain a just fund, but when it's people's health, I don't think so. I don't think so. So yes, I see Anaconda has a blessing and they deserve it because they've been in the smoke of the smelter forever. And of course, a lot of it went down in the valley area. I'm trying to remember it. I don't recall it coming west as much as down in the valley area, so yeah, I don't know, but I do think, yes, it needs to be addressed and I believe they are working at it.

[00:53:52]

Jaap: Clark, do you have questions?

Clark Grant: Yeah. I made a list. I thought maybe we could just kind of go back to the beginning. I just make notes as you guys talk and then. But I wanted to just start, I don't know if I missed it or if we got your parents names and when they were born.

McDonald: My dad was Leo McDonald, R. Leo McDonald. He only used the R. because he was named for his uncle Robert and he didn't like his uncle Robert. And he was born in Anaconda, April 20th, 1902. And my mother was Josephine Bechtold, B E C H T O L D. And she was born December 26, 1906. Okay.

McDonald: And Aubrey already touched on this question, but I was curious just more about life in Anaconda, especially when the Smelter was going. But you had talked about playing kick the can. So I'm just curious if you can give us more of a picture of your childhood there. I can, I think, as a child, we grew up not necessarily in neighborhood clusters. I mean, Anaconda was a neighborhood because it's a small community. And so your friends were from all over and at nights, sometimes you’d gather groups together and streets were pretty vacant. And if not, the cars would allow you to do what you're doing and then step aside. And so yes, kick the can was a fun game for us. Basically in the evenings, kind of just walking in the community and just enjoying being together and sometimes ending up at Bill's drive-in to have a Coke together and Bill's drive-in was on West Park.

And so, I was in the center area and then we had some friends down on the east side. So you gathered wherever and then you all kind of came to a common place and that's where you'd split and go home. But it was never any concern at all to be out and you couldn't not enjoy what was out. It was whatever you wanted to do. And we spent a lot of time playing baseball and softball. We had a great playground at St. Paul's school, which was just caddy corner from my house that you could play baseball on all the time. And fortunately they had screens on the windows so that you didn't have to worry. But, there were always gathering places. And you just never hesitated. I can remember being in a fish derby on Warm Springs Creek as a child and coming home with a new pole and a new fishing basket and the fish.

Grant: So what is a fish derby?

McDonald: A fish derby is where you sign in, anybody can sign in and you put your name down. So if you have to sign in, if you want a chance to win something, okay. And then they turn you loose on the creek and you are just helter-skelter up and down the creek areas. They kind of give you some limits, but not a lot. And so, I happened upon a hole and I got a really nice fish. And then I got a second fish and there was this little guy who came up and was out looking at the hole and he was considering fishing there. And I said, "Sure, put your hook in." So he did and nothing happened, nothing happened. So I gave him the little fish. And I thought to myself as a grown up, I should have given him the big one.

Jaap: Nah, you worked hard for that.

McDonald: But anyway, he got his prize too. But you did those things, you just didn't, it wasn't all for me, it was kind of like, it's all for all of us. And how do we share what we have with one another? So, to this day I have no idea who that little one was, but he was probably about a year and a half younger than I was . Yeah, you have these visions and you think, but now when you look back, you think, oh, that wasn't really generous.

Grant: How about the Anaconda today? How does it compare to that one?

McDonald: I don't spend a lot of time there, so that's a hard question. Obviously, it's probably changed as much as Butte has changed. I think one thing is that we no longer have the skating rink at Marshall park. They've made a nice baseball area there. And I think they did bring the tree in last year and put the water down. But you always knew that at Christmas time the company would go out and they would find the hugest tree it could find and bring it in and put it on that center commons. And then the ring was flooded and they always had the warming cabin up above for you, the shed, they took that area and covered it in, and there was always a watchman there and the stove was always burning. And so you'd go in and warm up and then go back out. And that was something anybody in Anaconda could do. If they needed skates, skates were always turned in that were smaller.

[00:59:50]

And so, when they get new skates, the old skates went down and other people could take them if they needed skates. So that was always good entertainment for us. Baseball during the summertime, the leagues were constantly running, all the time. And it was based in the commons area. And then later they had a field up in the west area. And then at Marshall park, of course, they had the big baseball field. And you also had the big parade in the summertime for the children that the company sponsored and everybody who was in the parade got a silver dollar. And I can remember when my younger brother was born in 1949, August 4th. And then the parade was coming and my older brother and I were thinking now, what are we going to do? Well, my mother had the plans already.

The lady next door came over with our costumes and we were in the parade. We got our dollar. We went to the park, we got our lunches and played in the games they had over there. So, all things worked out well. And I think those are things that kids today miss, but I'm not sure they'd want to when you stop and think about it, they've gotten so involved with the tech companies and all the gaming and the texting one another. And, I don't know that they wanna put them aside for the games. And I don't know if that's something that will ever come back. Which will be kind of interesting. But Anaconda and they had a heart for their kids. I mean, really. You'd play baseball and the whole back area was filled with people. They'd wander by and spend some time watching and then go on. But the adults were interested in what the children were doing. And I think that played a big part.

Grant: What about grade school? I was curious to hear more about your education there. 1:02:04

McDonald: Grade school, I went to St. Paul's school. It was located on Fourth and Maple, and I lived on Fifth and Locust. So, I went to kindergarten through eighth grade there, and again, we did lots of things as classes and just groups. And they're not things that kids would do ordinarily today. I mean, even just going to somebody's home and visiting, you went to the different homes and you'd stay there and have a good time. The next time somebody else hosted at their house. And that's how you spent your time playing and being together. Different. I don't know that we had real formalized games or puzzles or things that you did, but sometimes you just visited, which was kind of a unique thing to do.

But the teachers there were wonderful. For the first four grades, I had Ursulines and then the Ursulines didn't have enough to do the whole school and the Benedictines came and the Benedictines had a fourth to sixth and then the Ursulines seventh and eighth. In fact, we had the same teacher for the seventh and eighth grade and we loved her. And you'd always think you pulled the wool over her eyes. But every week she would say to us now if we all get our work done really well, maybe we could go outside and play a game of baseball for the afternoon. Well, let me tell you the work was done good, bad, or different, it was done and handed in and out we go on Fridays. Just thinking this is perfect. And she was also the principal of the school at the time. So everybody thinks they're pulling the wool over her eyes, but let me tell you, we did more work for her than we did for anybody because Friday was coming and we could have the afternoon to play.

So I thought that was a pretty good negotiating tool. I didn't use that in my teaching career. Maybe I should have.

Grant: Were there any rulers used?

McDonald: No. That's the interesting thing. No. And I can tell you, honestly, I never did either. My feeling about using rulers or not using them is that's the parent's time to discipline. You get on the phone and you call the parent and they do the discipline, not you.

[01:04:49]

And it works a whole lot better because usually when they come back to school, you can tell them, "Gee, I'm sorry that happened. You really have been doing well. Let's see if we can do a little better." It's called negotiation. Yeah. So that was not a part and it wasn't a part of any of the SCLs I ever taught with. We were not people who usually did that. So at least those that I taught with. So anyway, yes, the grade school was wonderful. And then we went to high school and in high school we had the Dominican sisters from [inaudible].

And I had some wonderful teachers all along the way. I mean, today I can diagram a sentence and we learned that let me tell you. We would hand in our diagrams and if those lines weren't perfect, she'd put a little tear at the top and you'd have to do them over. But today I can do that. And that was Sister Peter Damian, and I still remember her. And they were wonderful teachers and we got a good education, good science background. In fact it was such a good science background, it did me in, because I always wanted to be a history teacher and whenever it was discovered they needed a science teacher, history got kicked out and science got kicked in and that was okay. But I couldn't teach history because the coaches always got to teach history. They could put film strips on and then do whatever they wanted to do. Don't quote me.

Jaap: Not much has changed.

McDonald: So anyway, from high school, obviously I went to St. Mary college and I spent a year there.

[01:06:53]

Grant: I wanted to hear more about this man who insisted that you go to Kansas.

McDonald: Father McCoy. Yeah. Father John McCoy. He was a priest of the diocese and he was a principal at Central at the time. The high schools around town usually had a priest, principal, or director. I was thinking here in Butte, they had several different ones, but in Anaconda we had father McCoy and that was during my tenure there.

And he was interesting because when he caught an idea, it stayed with him. And when he made up his mind, he made up his mind. And had I not gotten the scholarship, I would not have changed from Montana State. And I don't think it would've made that much difference. Eventually, I'd have found my way, where I needed to be. So yeah. That's I think it all worked out the way it could, but yes, if he spoke, he spoke and we all paid attention for 10 minutes, maybe. At least he gave me enough time to go home and talk to my parents.

Grant: Did it feel bad to be in this kind of non-negotiable conversation with him? Like you say when he said something?

McDonald: No, I don't think so. Because in the back of my mind, I always knew where my parents were. Now when he first calls you in, you're like, well, I wonder what I did now. Because then you're going back through. Did I do anything? And maybe it wasn't what I had done. So you did all these things that a kid would do or normally, and so no. And he wasn't intimidating. It was just like, you will not go to Montana State University and like, but I want to go there. And I don't know, maybe it would've changed the course of my life. I have no idea. I mean, but I'm happy where I am. Yeah. So that's I think that's the key. Did he intimidate me? He might have, if I hadn't already had the conversation with my parents and if they didn't already know what I wanted to do. Now, I don't know if my parents might have been a little different had they known after the softball games, I was always the designated driver. But we won't go into that one.

Grant: It sounded like something had changed by the time you came home for Christmas, for that first foray into college.

McDonald: It had.

Grant: So what compelled you to join the order? What happened?

McDonald: I think meeting the sisters that were there at the college and how they viewed life and how they interacted with us and how they were involved outside the college in the Leavenworth community and helping individuals with needs and how they really paid attention to their students. It mattered whether people were doing well or not. And they had rules and we had to follow rules, you know, lights out at a certain time. And usually there was one sister who was responsible for the evening times if somebody got sick or something, and it was her job to go down the halls to check the lights, to see if they were on or off. But you knew when she left, you could turn it back on. But yes, I think it was how they lived their life and the example they set.

Grant: And what is day to day life like in an order?

McDonald: Well, pretty much, we have a prayer life. We have a mission. We have vows, poverty, chastity, and obedience. We are free to interact in the communities and in the best way we can. We are sisters of charity. And so we follow the rule of Vincent to Paul and Vincent created the sisters and the daughters of charity at first. And that was with Louise de Meralac and that's in France. And I mean, they were in France at the time. In those days, if you were a nun, you had to be inside a cloister. And you weren't out in the public. And so he had his women wear the dress of the time, so they could be out in public and ministering. And the women he drew to himself were usually very wealthy.

[01:11:34]

And so he utilized those women and they utilized their funding to help the poor. And so Vincent's whole emphasis is pay attention to the poor. The poor are your masters, and you'll reach out to them.

And especially the most vulnerable amongst you. Now, a lot of times you can use “poor” to say, "If they need an education, they're poor." But when they're sitting at a desk in front of you, their parents and family probably are very well to do. And they've sent them to you because they want the best. Well, hopefully we gave them the best, but maybe we needed to bring in half of the other community to sit alongside these people so that they began to see each other as equals. And then giving hands up more than just across. And so I think the emphasis for Vincent today, we have basically left school. I think we have one sister who still teaches, but we've left schools for social work. We've left them for counseling. We've left them for parish work, which involves counseling sometimes. It involves lots of different ways of meeting people - death and dying.  However we can touch people. And that we're invited into those roles.

One example is at mortuaries in town. If somebody dies and they don't have a specific minister or priest that they want to do something, they will call and ask me if I will do something. And the answer's always yes, because that's a moment where you have a chance to be with families in a different way. They don't know you, you don't know them. But you can bring our faith and tradition to them because when they get me, they still get a sister. They're not getting Joe Blow off the street who doesn't care what he says or how he says it. So there will be scripture involved and there will be explanations of that.

Tuesday I had the funeral for that two day old baby who passed away. That was a very difficult one. And I can honestly tell you it's the first time I sat down and wrote something. Because I did not want not to somehow say the right thing. And so, yes, I think, those are times when you meet people in a whole different way.

I had one probably about three months ago. The mother had died and there was discord in the family between the sisters and the brother. And he told me there was drugs and alcohol, et cetera. But during the course of that service, the one sister got up and was amazing, just amazing. And I think there was probably some healing there that was done because she was able to get up and speak and there was time for her to do that.

But the most interesting part of that was I had asked the mortician, I said, "Now, about how many people are coming?" Because I'm thinking about social distancing and the mask, the whole nine yards. Well now we do the mass there, but he said, "Oh, it's just immediate family." That was 150. So you don't know. But what you do is just turn it over to the Lord. Lord, we're gonna do this and we're gonna do it the way it needs to be done. We're not going to not do it. I had more hugs that day from gentlemen than ever before and comments of thank you. So you just, and sometimes when I walk out, I don't know what I've said and I have to tell you that, honestly, it's not that I don't go with a plan and that I don't go with the scriptures and I use them all the time, but the explanations and how they relate is different for every group. But you do what you need to do, hoping just simply to touch one person. And if you touch more than that, thank you, God. So yes, I, at that point in time, my ministry is to touch them in a way of comfort and with knowledge that God loves them. And that's all my job is.

And if I can do that, then I've succeeded. So yes, whenever I am asked to do those, I will always say yes, unless obviously there's some other commitment I have that I can't change, but then usually I'll work to change that commitment and still be able to do it because that's when people are most vulnerable and that's when people need some touch with God and they may not be Catholic. They may be nothing.  I've done coal [?] services with the Indian community here and with the smudging and the ceremonies.  I think that's what sisters are doing today. Especially just reaching out to people and trying to bring God's love.

Grant: And where does your faith intersect with political action? I'm curious about that.

McDonald: The gospel. The gospel message is: be just, be fair, be honest and have integrity about the earth where you live. And so yes, it ties in very nicely.

[01:17:48]

Grant: And what about in a court of law? What feelings do you get there? Because it seems like I was assuming maybe you ascribe to a higher law in your mind. And so if you're in a court of law, what is it like for you?

McDonald: I guess if you're in the court, you're there for a reason and you're gonna testify and you've prepared, and you've also prepared with your attorney and it's not that you're programming yourself that it's our way or the highway, but we try to speak the truth. And so that's when you take the oath, the oath is I will speak the truth to you, and this is my truth, and this is the truth our group has. And this is the truth we see. And this is the truth we're looking for. And so, yeah, it becomes a little simpler in some ways to sit on that chair and to take that oath and to answer the questions for the judge or for the other attorneys, or whoever is asking the questions and it's always looking for truth. And then speaking the truth. And when I'm asked questions, I try to pause a little bit so I can collect my thoughts and then speak. And that's just something you try to do anyway, so that you want to be sure you're answering the question, because sometimes you don't answer the question.

You want a story?

Grant: Sure.

McDonald: When I was in Chicago, I taught junior high and sex education was put into all the schools. And there was a Father Borsky there who was the main guru of this. And so you would have workshops and the teachers were all kind of nervous. We were, I mean, you don't know how this is gonna work, or if parents are gonna accept it or whatever. But the diocese says that we're gonna do it. So we're gonna do it. So we are getting all these and you got these little books that you're going to use, et cetera. And during the one day somebody asked him a question. He said, "Well, I've got a story for you." He said, "Little Johnny Jones came running into his house and he said, "Mom! Mom! Where did I come from?" And she looks at him and she thinks, "Oh, we discussed this. And John is supposed to tell him, and John's at work and he's asking the question, well, I better do it." So she sits Johnny down and she starts from A to B to C, tells him the whole thing. And Johnny is wiggling in his chair and pretty soon she's finished and he jumps up and he said, "Oh, thanks, Mom!" He said, "I was just talking with Jimmy down the street. And he came from Alabama."

Jaap: That's pretty good.

McDonald: So can you imagine what Jimmy thought when he came back with where he came from? So, yeah, I think when you're in those situations and they are what they are and you've gone for a reason and for a purpose. And so you try to do the best you can and to listen to the question and answer the question.

Grant: Justice is obviously a big focus of your life. I'm just curious if you can give us your assessment of our justice system. Do you think it's achieving justice generally speaking?

McDonald: I think we've got a long way to go. I think in some areas we're doing better than other areas. I think here in Butte, sometimes our justice courts don't do what they should do. We're all human. And obviously when cases come before you, sometimes opinions are already there because of who you are as family and the outreaches of that family.  But yes, I think the justice that we're handing out today . . . I know a personal example of a young man. He's a very big guy and tall, not fat, but tall. And he had a psychotic break and his wife brought him to St. James and they had him in their special room that they use. And he was yelling, et cetera. And two police officers came. And there was a hospital professional in the room. His wife was there and he was there and he was out of control, not physically to anybody, but he was out of control.

[01:22:43]

And he needed a meds change. And so the police officers asked them to leave, the attendant and also the wife. So they went outside the room and they were in there alone. That man was beaten and they denied it and I followed up and checked and "Oh no, nothing happened." Something happened. Okay. So do we have bullies on the force? Well, I would say that was a bully. So I don't know and then you hear other things and you think, yeah, we do have some bullies on the force and maybe our force does need to look at that. And how do we treat the black and the white? How do we treat the homeless and the homed?

How do we treat those who are not able to take care of themselves as well as they should? And those who can take care of themselves as well as they should? And yes, those are issues that we need to be honestly aware of and say, we've made mistakes. We've made mistakes. And how do we change those? Now, will it be to put that police officer on trial for killing George Floyd? Yes. Will it make a difference to the community? I hope so. What will be the outcome for him and his family? I wish we could get to a point where we'd say he needs treatment. He needs treatment. And obviously with all of the body cams and the phone cams today, this stuff is coming out. And you can't say, well, no, that's not really what happened.

[01:24:41]

Well, let's look at it one more time. One more time. But it is what's happening. And is that just? No, it's not. And so maybe we need to have police officers who go through college first and then are trained as police officers. Maybe there's a different requirement set and different expectations set, and maybe there's reviews of questionable incidents where we take it in and take a good look at it and have a committee set up to review it with psychiatrists, counselors, psychologists, whatever you want, but not hired by the police department or the city government, but individuals in the community that are brought in.

A physician, a nurse, set up committees that will review these questionable events and then take those events and get rid of them. I mean, I guess this officer had had many complaints, but nobody acted, nobody acted. So there's culpability there for all of us when we allow things to happen. So yes, I do think our justice system could use a little tweaking. And I think it should be justice for all, not just whomever. Our eyes are colored. Change the color. And we all need to work on racism. I need to work on it. And I think we're gonna be called to do that. And I think it's gonna be a difficult time for us in our country.

Grant: Well kind of switching gears. I wanted to ask you about the creek. Number one, why is the creek important to Butte? And do you think it's also a justice issue?

McDonald: I do think it's a justice issue. I think it's important to Butte because of how that whole middle corridor looks today. And that corridor . . . you're going to get this lecture . . . Okay, 2003, the mine flooding operational unit. Arco got permission from EPA,  Butte Silver Bow (I don't know if the state was involved in this one or not) to redo the channel of Silver Bow Creek from Texas Avenue all the way to the confluence and in asking to do that, they altered that channel to what it is today. And I think I mentioned before it was a trapezoidal shape. So they altered that channel to what they wanted it to be and put in the reverse French drains to collect the storm water and their intent was good.

They were gonna take the affluent water from the Horseshoe Bend Treatment plant. And if necessary supplement with Silver Lake water. Don't get me started on Silver Lake water. And so they were gonna supplement it and have the water flowing down through town. And the aesthetics were gonna be wonderful because it's such a mess up there. It looks like a battlefield and still that whole little, I call it Flintstone park, that little area there you come to off Continental and you're headed down to the Civic Center. Well, that whole area is such a mess. Well, they were supposed to have put aesthetic settings in there, trees and plants and shrubs. So it was wonderful. If I were in that neighborhood house there, I would be after them every day. It's such a mess. It's not the country. It's Butte, Montana. So that's number one.

And by the way, the reason the aesthetics are not done is because ARCO gave Butte Silver Bow the money to do it, and they started the project and then the sprinkling system broke. So that's why we don't have aesthetics. Now most families would say, oh, maybe we better go out and fix the sprinkling system. And they have the people to do it, but they didn't because they probably used the money elsewhere. And so there are no aesthetic values down the whole way, even in front of the chamber. That's not country, that's city. So when people come off the interstate to go there, they should have a nice setting and environment to go through. It shouldn't look like, well, we're still in the country. No, you're not. You're in Butte, Montana.

[01:30:06]

And so for the creek itself to flow through, it would be an amenity to Butte. We lost that as a recreational area when they were mining, et cetera, but Arco is supposed to be cleaning up the mining residue. That's mining residue. We should be given back a recreational creek that can be used by the community and can be enjoyed by the community because they took it and they did it under remedy and then remedy failed. So they should be responsible to redo that.

They are doing nothing in that first, last mile. They're doing nothing. They're abdicating to the state and to Butte Silver Bow. So that's not quite what it should be. They should be stepping up to the plate and doing something. Now with this latest find and this latest study that's been released, I'm sure they were shocked by it. Not really. They were shocked that it was turned loose. Yes, they're going to have to think about it and they're gonna have to do something. Now I can tell you this too. We had a meeting at the courthouse, the Restore Our Creek Group, with the state people, the NRD, DEQ, EPA, Arco, city people. And they wanted us to say that we agreed with everything that they have said they will do or not do. And there were 12 of us there and I'm thinking, whoa, I don't think I can do that.

And all of a sudden the state guy said, "We've talked about this enough. We're gonna just take a vote." We'll take a vote? Now, sometimes I do get nervous. So we're sitting there and as luck would have it, I was the last one. So they start around the room. Well, we're not happy with it. We think there should be more, but yes. Well, it doesn't seem to be everything that really needs to be done, but yes. I'm like, they're all saying yes. So it came to me and I'm thinking, and I said, "I can't accept it."1:32:42

Well, there was a gasp in the room, like "Uh..." And so they said, "Well, why not?" I said, "Well, you've asked for a vote and I'm saying, no, it is not enough. And it's not right. And it shouldn't be just left here. There should be more." And this was before the consent decree came out. So they all looked at me. And they said, "Well, we have our vote. We'll just go ahead now and go." So they all left, they got up and left. So I had some materials out on the table because I usually like to bring a few notes.

So I was putting them together and across from me was Patricia Gallery from British Petroleum. And she always tells me every time she sees me, she's a VP . So anyway, she's sitting there with Lauren Brewmeister and they're talking and she has some maps out and she looked up to me and she says, "Now, Mary Jo, do we have your yes?" I said, "No." And she says, "Well, what is it gonna take to get your yes?" And off the top of my head, I said, "You're gonna have to totally aesthetically redo the whole channel from Texas Avenue to the confluence. Aesthetically pleasing." And she said, "Well, aesthetically pleasing to you might not be the same to somebody else." And I said, "I know, but you're talking to me." Aesthetically pleasing the whole way as a city, not as the country. And she looked at Brewmeister and said, "I think we can do that." It has since come out that they're gonna do that, but that's not enough.

That's not enough. Aesthetics isn't gonna cut it. We need the creek. Basically we need the creek because the Parrot Tailings had to go. And basically we need the creek because that French drain isn't doing [enough]. It needs to go down 40 feet to collect all that affluent. And that's gonna be a real struggle. And we're gonna have to fight that one and I'm ready. So I might need your help. But we do need to make a difference in this community. I'm not gonna end up here. I'm gonna end up in Leavenworth, Kansas. And I know ARCO would prefer it would be in Pen there, but fortunately that's across the highway from our convent.

The only reason I'm even into this is because the people here deserve a healthy environment to raise children here. And I know people say, well, we already raise our children here. Yes, you do. But you don't know if there's gonna be after effects on health. You don't know that. I don't know that. So we need to do what we need to do to get this done right. And we need to have it aesthetically pleasing because we deserve it. We don't deserve a wasteland that we've lived with for a hundred years. We deserve it better and it needs to be aesthetically pleasing. So that's part of it, but the Creek also needs to have recreation available and we've lost all those recreational availabilities. Now, granted, they're gonna do trails, et cetera, and they're gonna build a wonderful amphitheater across Montana Street with no parking and they are not gonna do the pedestrian bridge over Montana Street. So you're gonna have a performance over there with 200 people and they're going to park on the east side of Montana street somewhere. And then they're gonna cross Montana Street in a herd while all the traffic is backed up in 14 different directions. I don't think so. I don't think so. We don't need the amphitheater. We need more attention paid to getting this creek done right.

[01:37:01]

Grant: When I hear this notion of a perpetual remedy, I'm reminded of that  verse in Ecclesiastes about how everything is vanity. Do you think there's some vanity in this notion that we can really fix these problems forever?

McDonald: Oh, do I think there's perpetuity? No, I think perpetuity will last as long as the last person who has institutional memory. Yeah. I think that's perpetuity.

Grant: So not very long.

McDonald: And do I think the funding will be there? You know, ARCO, I do believe the funding is there. I do, but they're not gonna wanna spend it unless they absolutely have to. And they will get rewards if they're able to pull back some of the money so that it's not spent here, you can be sure of that. There'll be few bonuses floating. Because that's how it works.

A true story. When the battle first started, they were in a battle about something and I can't recall what it was. But anyway, they signed something and the city government signed something and somebody else signed something. And the lawyers from ARCO had come in on a private jet. And when they left on that private jet, and this is an attorney sharing the story, they broke open the champagne, celebrating that they went home with millions of uncommitted money. So yes, there will be bonuses.

Grant: What about your friendship with Fritz? I was hoping you could just tell us about that, how you met and what is that relationship like?

McDonald: Fritz and I met after our lawsuit with Dennis Washington and Fritz has been following the mining issues for a long time and he and I are very good friends. In fact, we've had breakfast and lunch together at different times. In fact, he had a presentation he did the other day for somebody and I went to it.   I like Fritz. And Fritz has done a great deal for Butte. He's really suffering in not being able to push this across the finish line. And I recognize that, but I have nothing but good to say about Fritz. His commitment to the community. Sometimes he says, "I feel like they think I'm the enemy. I'm not the enemy." That's one of his quotes. Yeah. But he's not. And the fact is that we're gonna find that if this recent study gets questioned by an article and the EPA is already questioning it. Have you seen that document? They've written a letter about the WET study. And they are kind of ticked about it, but I need to call my friend  Nikia and say, "Nikia, let's talk." Because they need to step back and be the EPA and they're supposed to be protecting us, not fighting us. They should be fighting ARCO to do what's right. And they don't wanna do that.

Grant: Why?

[01:40:37]

McDonald: Well, the EPA and ARCO are very close because of the people who've been in charge. They have a very close relationship there and they're a company that has far reaching influences and they're using them. So do I think politics play a place? Yes, I do. And I think our city government, I'm not really sure where they are at this point. There have been times we've had meetings with Dave Palmer with Restore Our Creek and we hear one thing and then we hear something else from somebody else. It's hard to get people to sit down and be on the same page. If you don't like us, okay, you don't like us, but like the city and like the people that elected you to represent you and do what's right for them. This is a one time opportunity. If you think we're gonna be able to revisit this 10 years from now, we're not, this is gonna be a done deal. And what comes out of it, the people in this community are gonna live with that. We live or grow and they think we're gonna be removed from the Superfund site. And then all this other information is gonna start coming out. I don't think so. I don't think so. So yeah, I'm really concerned, but yes, Fritz has been a real champion and he truly has a big heart and for the community, and he's not getting anything from this except probably heartache and heartburn.

Grant: I had once heard you describe it as the ministry of Superfund, which I thought was really unique. Can you tell me about that concept?

McDonald: Who did you hear?

Grant: I think you had said that once.

McDonald: Did I say that once? I probably did. Well, I would see it as a ministry in so far as that our ministry is to do what's best for the people and especially the poor and the vulnerable. This whole community, I don't care if they're millionaires or six millionaires, they are vulnerable to what's happening in this cleanup. And if this cleanup is not done justly, we're all going to suffer. And especially the future generations, the children's children and the grandchildren that are gonna come, they're the ones that are gonna suffer. And it's our task to make sure what they have in this community is the most healthful environment, the most pleasant environment, the whole thing that addresses the whole human health and the human person. And, yes, aesthetics are important. We should have a community that when people drive through here or drive by, they look and think, "Whoa, that's really nice over there. Let's go ahead and take a look." We should be that community. So that whatever happens here, happens for the best. And right now we're being held captive by the company. Butte has always been held captive by the company. I can say that being from Anaconda. But Butte has been held captive by the companies and strikes, et cetera, et cetera.

[01:44:07]

And when you stop and think about it, Butte never gained anything from those companies. Everything went out. William Clark, Las Vegas, New York. They all took everything out of here and took it to another area. So Butte has never gotten a fair shake. Our miners had to mine for low wages. They had to fight for everything they got for their benefits, for their wages, to protect their people. Little stores in Butte suffered greatly during strikes because they kept the people fed and some of them closed because of it, but they cared enough about their neighbors to feed them. And they knew they would not get paid back. Sometimes they would get a nickel on a dime. And people tried the best they could, but they didn't have anything. And then the loss of life in the mines, a big, big problem for our miners. And what kind of benefits did their families get? Not much. So, yes, I think, because Butte has kind of had that 'We were owned by the company so we can't fight too hard. We have to . . .'  We need somehow (and the younger generations will do this) to come to the realization that nobody owns us. Nobody owns us.

And that's our attitude kind of, well, what can we do? It's a big company. They'll do what they want. Well, only because we let them. And when I looked at what Anaconda negotiated and maybe you might wanna look that up someday, because all the step by step, it was very clear. Now, if you wanna know what the allocation agreement was from 2003, 2006, you can get all this. You can't tell what we got. It is that couched in whatever. And there are backdoor deals, I'm sure. And then the whole thing this year, it'll be another allocation agreement signed. Well, what's in it? What's in the allocation? Tell us what's in it before you sign that. And we'll never see it. I bet it's not as clear as the Anaconda one was. And I'm sure some in Anaconda figure they should have gotten more and maybe they should have, but they did very well for themselves. So I think, again, it's that attitude. Well, I don't know. There's kind of an apathy. And so we need to wake up that apathy and say, wait a minute, let's take a look. Now we've got a new study here. And the new study is saying exactly what has been said before. It's reality. There is an issue and it's 40 feet down. And if you wanna refute the study, y'all come with your shovels and we'll let you dig. I truly think the challenge needs to be made. Bring your shovel, Company, if you want. And put it down here in the ground and show us that it's not there. It's time to be the show-me- state. Maybe the show-me-city.

[01:47:36]

Grant: Well, I just had one more question. I'm you've been back in Butte since 80, so 40 years. What would you say are the most significant changes you've observed in that time?

McDonald: Well, I think our economy has suffered. Our lack of retail is evident.  We've lost Kmart. We've lost Herbergers. Those are two biggies for people. Now we have Walmart. We have a few little shops, but people have to go out of town to shop. And that's not right. And no, it isn't our fault that the company's left, but Kmart obviously went into bankruptcy, but their pharmacy was number three in the whole nation of sales. Number three. And they closed it. Well, I think, I guess there are a couple of Kmarts still surviving or limping along, but basically they closed with bankruptcy and all. Herbergers, again, that's bankruptcy. But I think Herbergers, if they trotted out their sales and showed them to us, we'd be surprised. I think Butte really supported Kmart well, and so did the surrounding area. So I think retail is a big loss. We need to focus on that. We need to focus on getting more jobs. I think we need to focus on some clean industry.

I think we've gotten some, but basically we need to start recruiting maybe in a new way. And I don't know what that way is, but I'm just thinking what we're doing doesn't seem to be working. And when you look at other places,  the cost of living is much higher in those other places, we should be more attractive. We should be more attractive. Now I do know Loves is trying to come into Butte. But the wrong thing is they're trying to build it next to this little community of Ramsay which has a school which has an on and off ramp that will not accommodate all of these big trucks. And then they're gonna park these big trucks and let the fumes encapsulate the whole Ramsay community. And poor Ramsay is out there trying to fight this the best they can. But they don't have any money to fight it, but I think they need the support of more people. Did I get a call and asked if I would help them? Yes.

Jaap: Did you?

McDonald: And I will do anything I can to help them with ideas. And the big thing with Silver Bow Creek flowing past Ramsay, the whole building of Love's truck stop, and the lagoons are gonna put up to take care of their water, et cetera, and discharge, that's right next to the creek. So if something happens to that lining, where is it going to go? Missoula? Good luck.

Grant: Well, that does it for my questions.

Jaap: Mary Jo, this was wonderful. Thank you so much.

McDonald: Well, I think it was probably discombobulated and I apologize for that. Do you wanna know anything about my teaching career?

[01:51:20]

Grant: Sure.

Jaap: Tell us.

McDonald: Okay. When I started out, I taught fourth grade and I was in Sheridan, Wyoming and then I was moved to Grand Junction, Colorado. And when we were young sisters, you had a bag and it was like, have bag will travel because they wanted you to have all kinds of experiences. So I taught fourth grade there and then a sister got sick in Lakewood, Colorado and she taught junior high. And so she had to go to the mother house for two months. And so they asked me if I would leave Grand Junction and go there and take the junior high. And I thought, no. But you didn't say, no. You said, yes. So that was the beginning of my career in junior high. So after that I taught junior high. And then from there I went out to California, went to Chicago, went to Kansas City, Missouri. And when I went to Kansas City, Missouri, that was a great place. And when I went to the school, we had one black family. Nine years later when I left the school, we had one white family. And the transition was during the sixties and Martin Luther King and all those folks. So we were involved a lot in fair housing pushes and marches and teaching our children to stand up for their rights, et cetera.

And one Halloween, I also taught all the sports and the volleyball team, and we went out to the south end of town and it was a Catholic school out there and it was a white community. The game was at six and it happened to be Halloween. Well, everything got delayed and it was gonna be later. So we were sitting on the benches and it was gonna be about 6:30. So a couple of the girls came up and said, "Sister, we're hungry." I thought, I don't have anything with me. Well, we were supposed to play and if we'd been home, but we're hungry and it's Halloween. And I'm looking at them and their eyes are flashing Halloween. Can we go trick or treating? So I looked at the other sister with me and I said, "Yeah, let's go trick or treating." I said, “but you be back here and I’ll give you 15 minutes.” So they hit the neighborhood and all came back excited and they had candy and they said they were happy.

So we played our game and loaded them in our station wagon. And we were taking them back home and we're listening to them and they were talking in the back about their trick or treating. And this was one girl said, "I went to this one house, but they don't give to anybody that doesn't live in their neighborhood." And this one gal, June Watson, she was the mom of the group. She was in charge. "Oh," she said, "I went there and I got something." And they said, "Well, what did you get?" "Well, they gave me four pieces of candy." And they said, "Well, what did you tell them?" "Well, he asked me if I lived in the neighborhood and I said, yeah, we just moved in." I'm thinking that man was up at the crack of dawn looking house to house to see where they had moved. I thought, Yay, sleepless night, sir.

And then after that, I was a principal in Topeka, Kansas with the Mexican American group. And we had a lot of people there whose dads were working in the fields. You then when it came time and the harvest was done and they went for their pay, they usually had the INS there meeting them. So they were sent back to Mexico and the families were left in our parish. And so we had to step up and take care of those families while they were gone. They had no money. And we had the children to worry about. So we worked at that also. And usually they'd get back in about two months time, it would take them to get back across the border and home. And then the same thing would be repeated again. And so we tried to do what you could to change the system, but it's very difficult. And of course that was quite a while ago, too, was even more difficult then.

But what they suffered in order to take care of their families and to come here for a better life. And they weren't here to harm our communities and I don't have a birthright to this country. I don't have a birthright. So we all came here and we all came here for different reasons. And our ancestors came here to give us a better life. And that's all we're looking for now. So immigration is another huge issue and how we treat our brothers and sisters. And I guess that's basically what it comes down to. And so then because my parents were having some struggles when the opening came in Butte, I left there, which I was sad about. It was a great place. So I came out here and have been happy ever since.

Jaap: That's great.

Grant: That's a quick summary of a long career.

McDonald: Yes, it is. And it's been a wonderful career and interesting enough too, that this summer we would've celebrated our 60 years together. And there's still eleven of us that entered together. And we've always been very close, which has been kind of an enigma to most of the community, because usually you might have one or two friends but we're all close and whenever we can get together, we always do. So we had planned to get together for a week in Kansas before we had community meetings and we have a little place on a lake that somebody had given to the community that we can use as a time away place. And so we had reserved that and then darn it March happened. We did the community meeting on the phone, Monday, the 26th. And we started at nine o'clock and ended at four. And it worked. We got 125 people on the phone on time. Now I granted we had to have a meeting two weeks, three weeks before just to test it. We had no idea where everybody was. And neither did they. But we had mastered it by the time we got there. That's amazing. It really was kind of a miracle. Anyway, that's my story.

Jaap: Sister Mary Jo, thank you. It was a pleasure.

Grant: Thanks for that.

[END OF RECORDING]